Madge Maguire - Mega Thread

[Tim Sheens]

Maguire has challenged his players’ manhood publicly (or even privately)and that is the end for him. Football aside, that is unacceptable

They have few testicles between them, it is a statement of fact.

It is counterproductive to team building, cohesion and performance. And importantly, how do you believe other players outside the club will view WTs as a destination? Are we that naive to think word does not get around?

So we should be announcing in a press conference that players like Mbye actually had a great game, in the hopes that Brandon Smith might then decide he wants to come here?

Good players do not want to play with our squad.

To be fair why would any good player want to come and be lectured by a lunatic every week. You could see Everyone’s eyes glazing over.

Do you think Bellamy is not an angry ranting lunatic?

Nope. If you look at the shots in the dressing room he’s seated and talking normally 99% of the time. He blows up a couple of times a year when he needs to.

Bellamy has never had to deal with a squad like this. There is absolutely no evidence to support how he would or wouldn't react.

That’s because he whould not have recruited or re-signed the the players Maguire has

He has never been in a position to have to sign the type of players this club attracts.

Not so true he has recruited players that seem to be fairly average at other clubs who then improve under him and there systems. Maguire has brought in players to supposedly suit he’s coaching style and yet no improvement in individual performance or team performance. I whould like to see us improving to give some hope I’m just not seeing it

His recruitment has been within the constraints of an extremely buggered salary cap, with the Cleary era leaving a series of massively overpaid useless players on long term contracts, that is finally getting sorted out.

He was in a position to offer Latrell Mitchell over $1m a year. I don't think he's been any more hamstrung than other coaches, particularly this year.

Do you have solid proof that "he was in a position to offer Latrell Mitchel over $1 m a year" ? Avo.

Reported widely in the media at the time. This was from the article in the SMH when we pulled our offer:

'Sources have told the Herald that Mitchell was prepared to wait up until Christmas before making a call on his future. The Tigers, who have $1.7 million left in their salary cap to spend for 2020, weren’t prepared to wait that long."

Yeh :+1: ...but is that solid proof, or maybe something made up by a journo :question:

Inspector Gadget had plenty to say as well and we are never going to know exact figures.

 

[happy_tiger]

Hadn't seen this article posted ...apologies if it has already

https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/more-sports/the-only-thing-that-can-save-wests-tigers-coach/ar-AALObS4?ocid=ASUDHP&li=AAgfLCP

 

[jirskyr]

Scott Woodward must have the easiest job on earth. Packer - Fail, Mbye - Fail, Reynolds - Fail. Miss JAC - fail, withdraw Mitchell offer - Fail.

Scott Woodward joined Tigers in 2019. All those signings were pre-2019.

And @frullens is right - Woodward analyses players and makes suggestions, he doesn't do the recruitment. For example, you don't need an analyst to tell you Latrell is worth talking to, but he might have some metrics about Latrell that make for interesting reading.

Does Scott Woodward analyise the spend on players? For example, If we are buying x number of players from one manager, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect a discount? Basically more bang for our buck?

he basically comes up with a number that is a reflection of a players onfield output from how I understand it. Hartigan put a line in the sand and said he no longer wanted WT paying overs, so he grabbed Woodward to ensure it wouldn't happen again.

Yes I believe there is a concept of value tied into the analytics. However I think that also includes not just "raw value", like fantasy points, but value to the club. So a specific type of player may be more valuable because Tigers are targeting a specific attribute.

To @pawsandclaws1 - discounts from a player manager? Ha nice one.

 

[jirskyr]

Hadn't seen this article posted ...apologies if it has already

https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/more-sports/the-only-thing-that-can-save-wests-tigers-coach/ar-AALObS4?ocid=ASUDHP&li=AAgfLCP

Mate the only thing that saves the Wests Tigers coach is winning. I think people are being unrealistic to think they can parachute Tim Sheens in to fix the joint in a few rounds.

 

[happy_tiger]

Hadn't seen this article posted ...apologies if it has already

https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/more-sports/the-only-thing-that-can-save-wests-tigers-coach/ar-AALObS4?ocid=ASUDHP&li=AAgfLCP

Mate the only thing that saves the Wests Tigers coach is winning. I think people are being unrealistic to think they can parachute Tim Sheens in to fix the joint in a few rounds.

Shooting the messenger ..much

 

[851]

Hadn't seen this article posted ...apologies if it has already

https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/more-sports/the-only-thing-that-can-save-wests-tigers-coach/ar-AALObS4?ocid=ASUDHP&li=AAgfLCP

Sterlo is right, the fans are fed up, the buck should stop with Maguire, and he has been unsuccessful here, of course he should be feeling the heat

 

[Tigerboy]

who cares if you burn through coaches that just means there has not been one that is good enough to succeed .

What if burning through coaches means you're less likely to succeed?

I don't think some people realise that cutting coaches is as much a negative as a positive.

OK you cut one possible source of failure and install a new regime. Fine.

What about all the players who preferred the fired coach? What about the players who came to the club because of the fired coach? What about the contacts / network / sponsorship / corporate tied into the fired coach?

What about the time required for the new coach to get in, settle in, get to the core of the problem, install a new system. What about the impact on performance of players learning to adjust to a new system? What about long-term training and roster plans now torn apart because the coach has changed?

Maybe getting a new guy in fixes enough issues that the negatives are outweighed, but it's silly to think there's nothing to "burning through coaches". Imagine changing your boss every 3 years at work, see how you would feel about that.

This is also my main concern, the junior members of the team and his role in landing them. Essentially how it impacts them. The amount of work he's done has been tremendous for the club, however our onfield performances are too poor and inconsistent at this stage, so something needs to change before the damage is irreparable.

No offence I think Madge's issue is his sense of the current game, and where it's heading, isn't too great.
Despite their(the team's) non-performing or incompetence, I believe we still have some rather apt attack oriented players who should be killing it in the current game. However it seems there's an inability to effectively provide the right tactics needed to manipulate any of the team's task constraints (to the team's benefit), which is letting us/him down. We are unable to control and maintain momentum through lack of effort of key (our strike) players.
We've shown we can score at will but it's only ever through certain individuals and not really a team effort. So players aren't putting their hand up enough when the pressure's on. At this point in time we should have established some different or various types of winning combinations or formulas, but there's probably only 3 to 4 individuals that lift and come together when the chips are down.
The experienced or more seasoned players are major let downs in this area, as they're obviously more equipped or know which skills to apply. Yet Madge also looks to be failing with this, as it's up to him to provide the basic direction required to building teamwork which is strength based - for both the team and individually. We still lack cohesion in games.
Also, we as a team look like we're behind the curve ball. Agree with whoever said the change in the game has somewhat exarcebated it. But there's been a fundamental shift in the roles or responsibilities of modern day positions/players and I'm not sure Madge is quite up to speed with this.

There's been proposals of bringing in someone who's more understanding of the current game, to assist Madge, and if we don't do this unfortunately it only looks like the best solution is to get another coach. Which I know sucks for us fans, as well as the club. But it's another setback which isn't being addressed appropriately. This is months in the making and has been playing out for all to see.

I think almost every single point toward the team you made has already been posted

 

[Telltails]

Which teams in the bottom eight have beaten Parramatta Melbourne and South's of late?

 

[hobbo1]

Hadn't seen this article posted ...apologies if it has already

https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/more-sports/the-only-thing-that-can-save-wests-tigers-coach/ar-AALObS4?ocid=ASUDHP&li=AAgfLCP

Sterlo is right, the fans are fed up, the buck should stop with Maguire, and he has been unsuccessful here, of course he should be feeling the heat

But if flogs like Lee go behind the coaches wishes and extend hacks like nofoalooza what hope does he have ?

 

[TigerWest]

Hadn't seen this article posted ...apologies if it has already

https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/more-sports/the-only-thing-that-can-save-wests-tigers-coach/ar-AALObS4?ocid=ASUDHP&li=AAgfLCP

Sterlo is right, the fans are fed up, the buck should stop with Maguire, and he has been unsuccessful here, of course he should be feeling the heat

Do you think he isn’t feeling the heat?

Quoting Sterling about how the WT’s fans are feeling? Well I’m not sure how he would know?

No one is happy about our predicament, I’m sure, but all the discussion is about how we fix it and everyone has a different opinion, the only thing for sure is, it will be done how the club wants it done, whether we like it or not.

 

[Furious1]

who cares if you burn through coaches that just means there has not been one that is good enough to succeed .

What if burning through coaches means you're less likely to succeed?

I don't think some people realise that cutting coaches is as much a negative as a positive.

OK you cut one possible source of failure and install a new regime. Fine.

What about all the players who preferred the fired coach? What about the players who came to the club because of the fired coach? What about the contacts / network / sponsorship / corporate tied into the fired coach?

What about the time required for the new coach to get in, settle in, get to the core of the problem, install a new system. What about the impact on performance of players learning to adjust to a new system? What about long-term training and roster plans now torn apart because the coach has changed?

Maybe getting a new guy in fixes enough issues that the negatives are outweighed, but it's silly to think there's nothing to "burning through coaches". Imagine changing your boss every 3 years at work, see how you would feel about that.

This is also my main concern, the junior members of the team and his role in landing them. Essentially how it impacts them. The amount of work he's done has been tremendous for the club, however our onfield performances are too poor and inconsistent at this stage, so something needs to change before the damage is irreparable.

No offence I think Madge's issue is his sense of the current game, and where it's heading, isn't too great.
Despite their(the team's) non-performing or incompetence, I believe we still have some rather apt attack oriented players who should be killing it in the current game. However it seems there's an inability to effectively provide the right tactics needed to manipulate any of the team's task constraints (to the team's benefit), which is letting us/him down. We are unable to control and maintain momentum through lack of effort of key (our strike) players.
We've shown we can score at will but it's only ever through certain individuals and not really a team effort. So players aren't putting their hand up enough when the pressure's on. At this point in time we should have established some different or various types of winning combinations or formulas, but there's probably only 3 to 4 individuals that lift and come together when the chips are down.
The experienced or more seasoned players are major let downs in this area, as they're obviously more equipped or know which skills to apply. Yet Madge also looks to be failing with this, as it's up to him to provide the basic direction required to building teamwork which is strength based - for both the team and individually. We still lack cohesion in games.
Also, we as a team look like we're behind the curve ball. Agree with whoever said the change in the game has somewhat exarcebated it. But there's been a fundamental shift in the roles or responsibilities of modern day positions/players and I'm not sure Madge is quite up to speed with this.

There's been proposals of bringing in someone who's more understanding of the current game, to assist Madge, and if we don't do this unfortunately it only looks like the best solution is to get another coach. Which I know sucks for us fans, as well as the club. But it's another setback which isn't being addressed appropriately. This is months in the making and has been playing out for all to see.


I think almost every single point toward the team you made has already been posted

Cheers @tigerboy. It's honestly been really hard to watch at times this year, kind of like watching a trainwreck.
Didn't think much of it but some forumers have mentioned the importance of cultivating a winning mentality or developing a winning mindset - for our younger players - **and I'm starting to come around to the idea that maybe the club needs to go all out and offer ridiculous contract amounts in order to bring the right players to help with this.**
I know realistically it's our biggest challenge though.

I don't think its bad to spend overs if the contracts are short. Its 4 year deals at ridiculous amounts that create problems.

 

[jirskyr]

Despite their(the team’s) non-performing or incompetence, I believe we still have some rather apt attack oriented players who should be killing it in the current game. However it seems there’s an inability to effectively provide the right tactics needed to manipulate any of the team’s task constraints (to the team’s benefit), which is letting us/him down. We are unable to control and maintain momentum through lack of effort of key (our strike) players.
We’ve shown we can score at will but it’s only ever through certain individuals and not really a team effort. So players aren’t putting their hand up enough when the pressure’s on. At this point in time we should have established some different or various types of winning combinations or formulas, but there’s probably only 3 to 4 individuals that lift and come together when the chips are down.

Here's the question I can't get an answer for - why can Tigers score points, and often good points, but only when the pressure is either very low or very high?

They can score when they are desperate, and not just 2021, it happened in 2020 as well. They can also rack up scores against other teams who get lazy and don't put pressure on us.

It's the "middle pressure" that really gets Tigers, that football where there's time left on the clock but we are still in big points trouble. Even when Storm racked up a motza, same with Souths, Tigers actually arrested the flow in the second half. Just that Storm already scored 60 by then (Souths 30).

And honestly I don't think there are many coaches out there that "understand the modern game". I don't think it's a Madge thing only. I don't know who Tigers could hire to advise Madge on what to do. Nobody knows quite what NRL 2021 is, quite what it looks like, quite how to turn a bad team into a good team. Nobody can say for sure if 6-agains are to blame, or "V'Landys-ball".

Panthers and Storm, for example, were already good teams prior to 6-again and COVID, so whilst you can say the coaches figured something out, they started already near the top. There hasn't been a team "rise to the top" in several years.

Roosters have faltered, of course we allow for injury toll, but their coach is one of the best going around and can't seem to explain, in his press conferences, why his team has been absolutely smashed by the two front-runners in consecutive weeks.

Bennett has a far better side than Tigers but Souths have had some woeful results. Brad Arthur has spent many years slowly turning Eels into a premiership force, but they are found seriously lacking against the true top sides.

Des Hasler's entire fate seems to ride on whether or not Turbo can save his hamstrings.

 

[getagrip]

who cares if you burn through coaches that just means there has not been one that is good enough to succeed .

What if burning through coaches means you're less likely to succeed?

I don't think some people realise that cutting coaches is as much a negative as a positive.

OK you cut one possible source of failure and install a new regime. Fine.

What about all the players who preferred the fired coach? What about the players who came to the club because of the fired coach? What about the contacts / network / sponsorship / corporate tied into the fired coach?

What about the time required for the new coach to get in, settle in, get to the core of the problem, install a new system. What about the impact on performance of players learning to adjust to a new system? What about long-term training and roster plans now torn apart because the coach has changed?

Maybe getting a new guy in fixes enough issues that the negatives are outweighed, but it's silly to think there's nothing to "burning through coaches". Imagine changing your boss every 3 years at work, see how you would feel about that.

This is also my main concern, the junior members of the team and his role in landing them. Essentially how it impacts them. The amount of work he's done has been tremendous for the club, however our onfield performances are too poor and inconsistent at this stage, so something needs to change before the damage is irreparable.

No offence I think Madge's issue is his sense of the current game, and where it's heading, isn't too great.
Despite their(the team's) non-performing or incompetence, I believe we still have some rather apt attack oriented players who should be killing it in the current game. However it seems there's an inability to effectively provide the right tactics needed to manipulate any of the team's task constraints (to the team's benefit), which is letting us/him down. We are unable to control and maintain momentum through lack of effort of key (our strike) players.
We've shown we can score at will but it's only ever through certain individuals and not really a team effort. So players aren't putting their hand up enough when the pressure's on. At this point in time we should have established some different or various types of winning combinations or formulas, but there's probably only 3 to 4 individuals that lift and come together when the chips are down.
The experienced or more seasoned players are major let downs in this area, as they're obviously more equipped or know which skills to apply. Yet Madge also looks to be failing with this, as it's up to him to provide the basic direction required to building teamwork which is strength based - for both the team and individually. We still lack cohesion in games.
Also, we as a team look like we're behind the curve ball. Agree with whoever said the change in the game has somewhat exarcebated it. But there's been a fundamental shift in the roles or responsibilities of modern day positions/players and I'm not sure Madge is quite up to speed with this.

There's been proposals of bringing in someone who's more understanding of the current game, to assist Madge, and if we don't do this unfortunately it only looks like the best solution is to get another coach. Which I know sucks for us fans, as well as the club. But it's another setback which isn't being addressed appropriately. This is months in the making and has been playing out for all to see.


I think almost every single point toward the team you made has already been posted

Yes. Nothing new here and a long read to find out.

 

[happy_tiger]

Despite their(the team’s) non-performing or incompetence, I believe we still have some rather apt attack oriented players who should be killing it in the current game. However it seems there’s an inability to effectively provide the right tactics needed to manipulate any of the team’s task constraints (to the team’s benefit), which is letting us/him down. We are unable to control and maintain momentum through lack of effort of key (our strike) players.
We’ve shown we can score at will but it’s only ever through certain individuals and not really a team effort. So players aren’t putting their hand up enough when the pressure’s on. At this point in time we should have established some different or various types of winning combinations or formulas, but there’s probably only 3 to 4 individuals that lift and come together when the chips are down.

Here's the question I can't get an answer for - why can Tigers score points, and often good points, but only when the pressure is either very low or very high?

They can score when they are desperate, and not just 2021, it happened in 2020 as well. They can also rack up scores against other teams who get lazy and don't put pressure on us.

It's the "middle pressure" that really gets Tigers, that football where there's time left on the clock but we are still in big points trouble. Even when Storm racked up a motza, same with Souths, Tigers actually arrested the flow in the second half. Just that Storm already scored 60 by then (Souths 30).

And honestly I don't think there are many coaches out there that "understand the modern game". I don't think it's a Madge thing only. I don't know who Tigers could hire to advise Madge on what to do. Nobody knows quite what NRL 2021 is, quite what it looks like, quite how to turn a bad team into a good team. Nobody can say for sure if 6-agains are to blame, or "V'Landys-ball".

Panthers and Storm, for example, were already good teams prior to 6-again and COVID, so whilst you can say the coaches figured something out, they started already near the top. There hasn't been a team "rise to the top" in several years.

Roosters have faltered, of course we allow for injury toll, but their coach is one of the best going around and can't seem to explain, in his press conferences, why his team has been absolutely smashed by the two front-runners in consecutive weeks.

Bennett has a far better side than Tigers but Souths have had some woeful results. Brad Arthur has spent many years slowly turning Eels into a premiership force, but they are found seriously lacking against the true top sides.

Des Hasler's entire fate seems to ride on whether or not Turbo can save his hamstrings.

The situation where their is high pressure ...both teams are under high pressure ...so young / rookie players from both sides can make errors ......

In the mid level cases you mention ...we are probably under more pressure ...we know we will get limited chances to attack ...you play against us you know that we will make some horrible defensive errors .....probably drop a bomb or fail to defuse a grubber ..etc

 

[twentyforty]

Hadn't seen this article posted ...apologies if it has already

https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/more-sports/the-only-thing-that-can-save-wests-tigers-coach/ar-AALObS4?ocid=ASUDHP&li=AAgfLCP

Sterlo is right, the fans are fed up, the buck should stop with Maguire, and he has been unsuccessful here, of course he should be feeling the heat

But if flogs like Lee go behind the coaches wishes and extend hacks like nofoalooza what hope does he have ?

very little. which emphasises the importance of organisational structure integrity.

 

[hobbo1]

Hadn't seen this article posted ...apologies if it has already

https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/more-sports/the-only-thing-that-can-save-wests-tigers-coach/ar-AALObS4?ocid=ASUDHP&li=AAgfLCP

Sterlo is right, the fans are fed up, the buck should stop with Maguire, and he has been unsuccessful here, of course he should be feeling the heat

But if flogs like Lee go behind the coaches wishes and extend hacks like nofoalooza what hope does he have ?

very little. which emphasises the importance of organisational structure integrity.

When’s that going to happen ?
Still waiting on Pascoe’s pledge on one home ground from 6 years ago

 

[avocadoontoast]

Hadn't seen this article posted ...apologies if it has already

https://www.msn.com/en-au/sport/more-sports/the-only-thing-that-can-save-wests-tigers-coach/ar-AALObS4?ocid=ASUDHP&li=AAgfLCP

Sterlo is right, the fans are fed up, the buck should stop with Maguire, and he has been unsuccessful here, of course he should be feeling the heat

But if flogs like Lee go behind the coaches wishes and extend hacks like nofoalooza what hope does he have ?

very little. which emphasises the importance of organisational structure integrity.

The main sponsor should not have a seat at the board, let alone chairman, imo.

 

[Goanna57]

I think that club management have reached a fork in the road. Either back Maguire to the hilt and inform the players any that don’t like it are free to go,bring in heap of new players and based on Maguire’s record will we be anybetter off. Or replace Maguire

 

[twentyforty]

I think that club management have reached a fork in the road. Either back Maguire to the hilt and inform the players any that don’t like it are free to go,bring in heap of new players and based on Maguire’s record will we be anybetter off. Or replace Maguire

The club has sacked coaches in the past because players were sulking. I’m not sure they’re sulking but if they are, how will cementing this into club culture break the cycle?

 

[TrueTiger]

The majority of the playing group is young,inexperienced,developing and learning....the older ones from different systems are adapting...it takes time and some pain...
if anyone should feel the heat its the players for not 100 percent putting in to adapt to the new game and rules....